MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
It wasn't exactly a surprise that Republicans won enough seats to take control of the Senate in Tuesday's elections. Democrats had many more seats to defend. But the first of the night to fall was the one in West Virginia that had been held by Joe Manchin III for three terms. Manchin decided to retire, and West Virginia's Republican governor, Jim Justice, easily claimed the seat. For almost a decade now, Manchin has been West Virginia's lone congressional Democrat. He registered as an independent earlier this year, but still caucused with the Democrats. So we wanted to get his take on what he thinks has gone wrong for the Democrats this election season, and he's with us now. Good morning, Senator.
JOE MANCHIN: Hi, good morning, Michel. How are you?
MARTIN: I'm well. Thank you. So anytime a party loses a lot of seats, there's finger-pointing.
MANCHIN: Sure.
MARTIN: But, you know, go ahead. Point fingers. From your point of view, what went wrong for the Democrats?
MANCHIN: Let me just go way back. I'll go way back on you when it started changing. I started seeing the change in 2010, 2010. And I'll tell you why. Robert Byrd passed away in June. I thought - I was in my second term as governor - thought that I could basically go ahead and appoint somebody, but then it was out of the time limit, and I had to go ahead and run if I wanted to represent our state, which I wanted to, and our state was in great shape. The day that I announced that I was going to run, my approval ratings went let's say from approximately 70% approval as governor of the state of West Virginia down to around 50%. That's just because they thought, that's not going to be West Virginia Joe anymore. It's going to be Washington Joe. I hadn't changed. I hadn't said a word. That's the perception people have, that Washington just basically takes you out of what we are, who we are, and you're representing them and not us.
MARTIN: That's interesting.
MANCHIN: Now, the other thing I told my friend Elizabeth Warren in 2014 - said what happened to West Virginia Democrats? I says, nothing. They want to know what happened to the Washington Democrats. All of a sudden, we've done all the heavy lifting. We've mined the coal, made the steel, built the guns and ships, factories - we've done it all. We've been heavy lifters and never complained. All of a sudden, now, we're not good enough, clean enough, smart enough to be part to where anyone cares anymore.
MARTIN: Well, wait - well, hold on. That's kind of a heavy charge there. So when you say that, what do you mean by that?
MANCHIN: What I'm saying is it's like the returning Vietnam veteran. They did everything their country asked of them and returned back as this basically - and got really disparaged by being involved in that process. We've done everything our country needed to be the greatest country on Earth and get no recognition. So the people in West Virginia, Democrats - I'm going to go into now why I think Democrats across the country - across the country I have seen this. I've talked and everything. They truly believe that people making an effort - people hustling, taking risks, working hard every day - have less - basically less concerns from the government than those who have not struggled or done as hard or worked as hard. The people that aren't making the efforts aren't basically out there contributing to society and haven't given as much as they should because the government has basically taken care of them in a better fashion than those being assisted by trying to take care of their families.
MARTIN: Is that a...
MANCHIN: And they're saying, my God.
MARTIN: Is that a rural-urban divide?
MANCHIN: I think it's in hardworking Appalachia. Yes, I will say that, but I can tell you, across the country in really Midwestern states all across the country, I've run into that, and they're saying, my goodness, I'm better off if I don't work. I'm better off if this and that. And I'm thinking, now, wait a minute. The system is basically to be compassionate. I says, I'm fiscally responsible, responsible, but I'm socially compassionate. That's where the old Southern Democrats had always been. That's how my family raised me. And all of a sudden, then, you know, the person that's really out there making it and getting it every day and hustling for their family and contributing to society doesn't believe they have the same opportunities as someone who hasn't.
MARTIN: So that sounds to me like you're arguing that the social welfare state is kind of an albatross around the necks of people who are working hard, as you say. But I don't think the numbers support that. I mean, the number would suggest that, for example, income inequality has ballooned rapidly in this country.
MANCHIN: Horrible.
MARTIN: And it's not people...
MANCHIN: Horrible - I agree with you.
MARTIN: It's not people who are getting social welfare benefits who are contributing to that. It's people who are aggregating wealth at the upper end of the scale. So if that's the case, what does the respect that you're talking about look like for the people that you care about most? What would it look like if the Democrats were to recalibrate?
MANCHIN: No, no, I agree with you. Michel, I agree with you, just what you said. But the bottom line is everyone has to contribute. Government should be your partner, not your provider. I have said that from Day 1. I've been involved in politics for 42 years. I'll be the best partner you had, and I'll be the most compassionate leader you ever had because I'll take care of those who are uncapable of taking care of themselves.
MARTIN: And what would that look like?
MANCHIN: Those that can...
MARTIN: What would that look like in your view?
MANCHIN: Well, I think that basically, there has to be work requirements in everything that we do. Everyone has to contribute. If you're a healthy American, you can contribute something back to society.
MARTIN: Well, is that enough?
MANCHIN: You truly can.
MARTIN: Is that enough? I mean, if there - if - let's just say, for the sake of argument, if that Joe Biden and Kamala Harris as an administration had proposed work requirements for people getting welfare benefits, that would have solved the problem. Is that it?
MANCHIN: Not solve the problem. I think it makes a better, healthier environment for all of us when people are contributing, giving something back instead of getting something for nothing. I don't know what else to tell, trying to make it look like, oh, you're insensitive. I'm not.
MARTIN: No, I'm not - I'm just asking...
MANCHIN: I've had to work my entire life. My grandfather...
MARTIN: ...What the policy would look like.
MANCHIN: The policy - I've tried it when I was governor. I said, give me a waiver. I said, people that are healthy while being hit on hard times - I want to help them get back into the workforce. And for some reason, some of the policies want to keep you out of the workforce.
MARTIN: OK.
MANCHIN: I don't know what else to tell you. I don't know how to tell you. That's the perception, whether it's actual or factual or not. OK?
MARTIN: OK.
MANCHIN: That's the perception. And that's what happened. The people basically swung on this election in areas greater than what we ever thought. And they have spoken. And I have said this also.
MARTIN: It's interesting 'cause, you know, immigration was such a big issue...
MANCHIN: Sure.
MARTIN: ...In this election, but West Virginia has lost population since the last census, which is why West Virginia now has only two seats in Congress instead of the three that they had when you started out. So I'm wondering if you could make the argument that a state like West Virginia and also other places that were swing states like western Pennsylvania could actually benefit from immigration.
MANCHIN: We would benefit from legal immigration. That's how I - I'm here because of my grandparents, came here as immigrants from Italy and Czechoslovakia back in the 1900s. But they came here working from the first day they hit the soil. There was no handouts.
MARTIN: OK.
MANCHIN: You know? And during the Great Depression, I don't remember FDR ever sending a check to anybody. He gave them opportunities. So we have lost our way of productivity and work and involvement. The income inequality is absolutely correct. The one thing I agree with Bernie Sanders is income inequality is absolutely off the charts. It's got to be changed.
MARTIN: Before we let you go...
MANCHIN: But with that, everyone's got to participate, Michel.
MARTIN: Before we let you go, what are you going to do now that you're heading into retirement?
MANCHIN: I'm going to basically be speaking with my daughter, and we're working what we call americanstogether.com. Please check it out. We're trying to get people understanding you've got to change the primary process. You've got to get more people involved, better-quality-character people that can really give back and are serving for the particular country and not for the party.
MARTIN: That is Senator Joe Manchin III. He represents West Virginia in the Senate. As we said, he's an independent. He caucuses with the Democrats, and he's chosen to retire. Senator, thanks so much for talking with us.
MANCHIN: Thanks for having me, Michel. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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