ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:
The first time I heard Michael Kiwanuka, I didn't know it was him.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "COLD LITTLE HEART")
MICHAEL KIWANUKA: (Singing) Did you ever want it? Did you want it bad? Oh, my...
SHAPIRO: His 2016 song "Cold Little Heart" opened each episode of the smash HBO show "Big Little Lies." Back then, Kiwanuka was still getting his footing as an up-and-coming British singer-songwriter.
KIWANUKA: At the beginning you're, like, really wanting to impress your peers. You sort of make your own music, and it's from the heart, and it's, like, authentic, but you've got half a ear on, like, I really want to make sure that this has credibility, I guess.
SHAPIRO: He's well past that phase now. In 2020, he won the coveted Mercury Prize. The next year, he got a Grammy nomination for best rock album. This year he played the main stage at Glastonbury, and now he has a new album out called "Small Changes."
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THE REST OF ME")
KIWANUKA: (Singing) Back when I was lost, stumbling around, you found me. Now I can see my feet won't touch the ground.
SHAPIRO: He spoke to us while he was in a car, bouncing from place to place on his press tour, and Michael Kiwanuka told me this record is his answer to a simple question. What if you stopped trying to be cool?
KIWANUKA: This time round, I was free from that, and it felt really nice, you know, that confidence and that peace of mind.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THE REST OF ME")
KIWANUKA: (Singing) God knows I got to be leaving the rest of me behind, behind. Yeah.
SHAPIRO: I'd like to go back in time and talk a little bit about your musical evolution because it's an interesting one. There's a song on this album called "Lowdown," and you've said it's about a teenage you.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "LOWDOWN (PART I)")
KIWANUKA: (Singing) Early morning, I rise to the locals watching me.
SHAPIRO: Can you paint a picture of that kid for us - like, the music he was listening to, what he was doing? What was that scene?
KIWANUKA: Yeah. It was - you know, probably just picked up the guitar, first couple of years of playing guitar, was, like, singing only out of necessity if I was - 'cause I really wanted to start a band, and there wasn't always a singer. So I would, like, do it 'cause I had to, but I never actually wanted to at that time.
SHAPIRO: So your vision was being a guitarist, not a frontman, not the lead singer?
KIWANUKA: Yeah, big time. I was listening to, like, actually a lot of American guitar music, like, some grunge from, like, Nirvana to Pearl Jam, even, like, also, like, some - even some punk rock like Everclear's - you know, really stuff that you wouldn't...
SHAPIRO: That sounds nothing like the music you make today.
KIWANUKA: Yeah, yeah, nothing like it. And so in my head back then, before - sort of before getting into more, like, jazz music, I was, like, into just, like, guitar bands. And so "Lowdown (Part I)" - the reason why it was sort of me looking back at a teenage self was that I was actually trying to write those kind of of songs. I just sort of didn't know fully how yet.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "LOWDOWN (PART I)")
KIWANUKA: (Singing) Lowdown. I'm lowdown tonight.
SHAPIRO: You enrolled in a jazz program at the Royal Academy of Music, and you left before it was over. Do you ever think about what your career as an artist would look like if you had stayed on that path?
KIWANUKA: Yeah, I do a lot 'cause that - it was after I dropped out of there that I started to sing. So I'm actually glad I did, but I think it would look completely different. I'd probably be doing more, like, teaching guitar, maybe pub gigs, playing jazz or whatever around London for fun but not playing, not making records, you know? I definitely wouldn't be doing that.
SHAPIRO: OK, so just to follow the threads here, singer-songwriter Michael Kiwanuka grew up listening to rock music as a teenager, went to school studying jazz. And you're also the child of two parents who emigrated to the U.K. from Uganda. Was there that musical thread as well from them?
KIWANUKA: Yeah, I mean, probably, like, subliminally. I think the rhythm and, like, the feel of music - if, like, family, like aunties and uncles, would come round, they would play, like, Ugandan music or, like, Ugandan pop from, like, the '70s, which young people my age would consider old, uncool music.
SHAPIRO: Is there even a subtle place on this album that you could tease out where that ripple...
KIWANUKA: Yes.
SHAPIRO: ...Reaches?
KIWANUKA: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's the bass. I think, like, the bass on "Floating Parade," just that, like, feel and groove, is, like, definitely from Africa (laughter).
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "FLOATING PARADE")
KIWANUKA: (Singing) Ooh, like this. Like this, like this.
SHAPIRO: And is that particularly typical of, like, the old-fashioned '70s Uganda rock...
KIWANUKA: Yeah.
SHAPIRO: ...That your parents would play?
KIWANUKA: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You'd have a bass groove like that going, and you'd have, like - but then the electric guitar would have, like, a melodic high-picking (ph) pattern that was like - had a good groove. And then there would be, like, harmonies and soulful vocals over the top. And there was just so much rhythm and color to it. So, you know, it's always in there, you know? And I feel like being able to play and write songs like this is definitely indebted to, like, my parents and that Ugandan heritage in the blood.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "FLOATING PARADE")
KIWANUKA: (Singing) So I'll be a full-on child for a while.
SHAPIRO: Will you also tell us about the lyrics to this track?
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "FLOATING PARADE")
KIWANUKA: (Singing) People keep talking.
SHAPIRO: People keep talking about how pots don't melt. Well, we don't belong in this hard-luck hand we're dealt.
KIWANUKA: Yeah, yeah. So "Floating Parade" is - like, we can switch on the news today, and, like, there's so many horrible stories. You can feel pretty low. And there's some crazy stuff happening in the world. And one of the ways, like, I quite like to deal with that sometimes is just to sort of, like, focus on, like, better times coming. Just even just that actively, like, believing that is, like, kind of like a protest. And, like, "Floating Parade" is, like, an image of that. I literally just sort of imagined this cloud, and people just party on top of it.
SHAPIRO: (Laughter).
KIWANUKA: And it was, like, everything was good. And so when everything's all murky downstairs, you're just looking up there, and it gets you trudging through it day by day, and you don't get too down. And the pots don't melt specifically is, like, the image is like clay. Clay doesn't melt, you know? So it doesn't matter how hot it gets, it, like, stays strong.
SHAPIRO: Oh.
KIWANUKA: And we're supposed to be like - if the temperature around us in life is flipping difficult, you're like, we don't melt. But that's just not true.
SHAPIRO: Wow.
KIWANUKA: It's just, like, toxic to think like that. And then the English one is the stiff upper lip, but pots don't melt sounds way better.
SHAPIRO: (Laughter).
KIWANUKA: Sounds more like a Bill Withers song (laughter).
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "FLOATING PARADE")
KIWANUKA: (Singing) Ooh, like, like this.
SHAPIRO: Well, Michael Kiwanuka, is there a track you'd like us to go out on?
KIWANUKA: Yeah, there is. I really, really love the title track.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "SMALL CHANGES")
KIWANUKA: (Singing) Small changes solve the problem.
It was the first song in the studio that came that made me feel like, right, we're making a record, and got me really excited about the album. It was sort of the first thing I made. And I love - I've always sort of wanted to write a song like that as well, so - and I think it's really beautiful, so I'd love people to hear it.
SHAPIRO: It's such a wistful song. It's like...
KIWANUKA: Yeah.
SHAPIRO: It's hopeful, but it's not starry-eyed, idealistic, unrealistic hopeful. You know what I mean?
KIWANUKA: Yeah, exactly. And that's, like, I was trying to make the whole album - like, I don't want it to be depressing, but I also don't want it to be, like, fake like, everything's great (laughter) 'cause it isn't. But it's worth going for it, you know? It's worth having that hope anyway. There's always - there is always light in the tunnel. You've just got to, like, go for it, believe in it.
SHAPIRO: Well, Michael Kiwanuka, congratulations on your new album, "Small Changes," and thank you for talking with us about it.
KIWANUKA: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "SMALL CHANGES")
KIWANUKA: (Singing) Small changes on your mind. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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