STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:

I had a chance this week to do something unusual. I gave a speech to a meeting of Western governors. They were meeting in Las Vegas. Republicans and Democrats from states west of the Mississippi talked about the media, talked about history. But while it was great to talk to them, I really wanted to listen, so we invited three governors into a side room. And I asked them to say something that's happening right now in each of their states, starting with Democrat Michelle Lujan Grisham of New Mexico.

MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM: Holiday seasons for a state that's got 400 years of Catholic and sovereign nation and Spanish traditions - it's a pretty awesome time.

INSKEEP: Republican Spencer Cox of Utah says it's a pretty awesome time there, too.

SPENCER COX: It's ski season, and the ski resorts are all open in Utah. So come enjoy the greatest snow on Earth.

INSKEEP: And Republican Mark Gordon of Wyoming said they're skiing in his state, too. But also...

MARK GORDON: It's NFR, so National Finals Rodeo. We've got five contestants here.

INSKEEP: The rodeo was there in Vegas, although Governor Gordon was hoping people from his state would triumph. Now, the presidential transition is not the first rodeo for these governors, who've seen a few presidents come and go. My big question was what's on their minds as the Trump administration returns. And here is the first thing we heard from Utah's Spencer Cox.

COX: This energy crisis that we're seeing right now.

INSKEEP: All three governors - from both parties - talked about permitting reform to speed up energy projects on federal land, which is the majority of land in some Western states.

But you used the phrase, energy crisis. What is the crisis?

COX: The crisis is that we just don't have enough. And we knew that this would happen. It's happening a lot sooner than we thought, mainly driven right now by the explosion of AI data centers across the country, not just in the West. But they have an insatiable need for energy.

LUJAN GRISHAM: I agree that the permitting in energy is something we really need them to focus on.

INSKEEP: The governor's emphasis was a little different. Lujan Grisham, the Democrat, talked of wind and solar and geothermal energy - all friendly to the climate - although she also favored oil and gas.

LUJAN GRISHAM: New Mexico produces the cleanest barrel of oil and the cleanest liter of gas on the planet.

INSKEEP: Cox and Gordon, the Republicans, welcomed renewables, but also come from big coal-producing states.

COX: As long as anybody's burning coal out there, they should be burning Utah coal.

GORDON: Oh, now.

COX: And Wyoming coal.

(LAUGHTER)

COX: It's the same vein. It's the same vein.

INSKEEP: So they promoted carbon capture, a pricey technology that's not yet proven to work on a large scale. But all three governors, regardless of party, acknowledged climate science. Regardless of party, they also felt they understood the economics of the president-elect's promised tariffs.

What would tariffs mean for your state? Higher tariffs on every product.

LUJAN GRISHAM: It means higher prices. Most of my food for feeding New Mexicans, even though we're also a high ag production state, comes from Mexico. We already, today, are paying 10% more on average at grocery stores for most Americans, and we're one of the poorest states. We're trying to open up more ports of entry, which are getting positive reviews currently by the federal government. And I hope that doesn't stall, because we need these goods and services coming across.

INSKEEP: I want people to know you have an industrial area down near the border.

LUJAN GRISHAM: Santa Teresa, yeah.

INSKEEP: Not far from El Paso, Texas. A lot of industries in that area - as they make products, it goes back and forth across the border again and again and again.

LUJAN GRISHAM: It does. Well, here's an example. Look, New Mexico's home to the first reshoring of manufacturing solar panels in the country. But a lot of the subcomponent parts are made in Mexico. So now, if we're going to create a tariff situation, we're holding them at the border in ways that are complicated and don't promote getting these industries for manufacturing off the ground. If their costs go up, then we're weighing in and hoping to get the right kind of flexibility and attention that we're going to need here.

INSKEEP: Now, you hear there why we're spending a little extra time with these three Western governors. National issues that seem big and abstract, black and white - like, tariffs, good or bad - get more complicated.

COX: Yeah. Look, Mexico is a really important partner for us in the state of Utah - in fact, for most of our Western states. I'm assuming it's a top-three trading partner probably for all of us.

LUJAN GRISHAM: No. 1 for us, yeah.

COX: No. 1 for you. Definitely top three for us. And I just want to say - I hope we can look at this a little differently. With what's happening in China right now, Mexico now becomes one of our most important trading partners. Even more than just the raw numbers, we have so many organizations in the state of Utah that are leaving China and looking to reshore and nearshore. Some of them are coming back to Utah, but not all of them can. And they're coming to Mexico, which is good for both of us. It helps with the border issues, as well.

INSKEEP: Oh, helps with the border because a better Mexican economy...

COX: Exactly, yes.

INSKEEP: ...Absorbs workers. Fewer people coming in.

COX: Absolutely. That's what I mean. The people are much less likely to come here for jobs when they have great jobs there.

INSKEEP: Governor Gordon, you were nodding.

GORDON: Our relationship with Canada is also incredibly important. We have manufacturers that require pieces of equipment and other things that come from Canada only. I can remember in the first Trump administration, early on, having a conversation with Larry Kudlow where I was saying, you know, we have tariffs across a lot of things. But our domestic nuclear power industry is dependent on Russian and Kazakhstan uranium. We need to have that fuel manufactured here domestically. So my hope is that as we look at these policies, some of them can be very valuable in building up our domestic capacity. Doing that in a balanced way is what's going to be key.

INSKEEP: I feel that I'm hearing you saying an across-the-board tariff on everything is bad. Carefully targeted, thoughtful tariffs could be useful in specific places. Is that what you're saying?

GORDON: Yeah, I think that's probably true.

INSKEEP: Of course, the first issue this administration is going to tackle, it seems, is illegal immigration. Will state law enforcement agencies in your states cooperate to the fullest extent with a mass deportation?

LUJAN GRISHAM: My state won't. And we have a very clear and broad constitutional set of protections for both privacy and access to services like free and fair, unfettered access to public education. So we're not going to do that. We also have very clear designs and requirements for what we believe is constitutional policing.

INSKEEP: Let's go through a couple of really...

LUJAN GRISHAM: Yeah.

INSKEEP: ...Specific examples...

LUJAN GRISHAM: Sure.

INSKEEP: ...Of cooperation. Any administration, including the outgoing Biden administration, would like it - or would have liked it - if, when someone who is here without documents is arrested for a crime and they're in the county jail, that they should be turned over to immigration authorities and deported. Some citizen states will do that. Some citizen states will not. Will you?

LUJAN GRISHAM: Yes.

INSKEEP: You will do that?

LUJAN GRISHAM: And we have been cooperating on particularly nefarious activities. I can't think of a state, or a Democratic state, that isn't interested in curbing nefarious activity and/or doing better at public safety. I want that.

INSKEEP: Our conversation with the three Western governors had arrived at a deeply divisive issue. But, as with energy, these governors' disagreements seemed more about emphasis. They focused on practical results as much as an ideological divide. Republican Spencer Cox of Utah said he has zero information on what, exactly, the new administration plans to do. Mass deportation could mean a lot of things, although he stands ready to cooperate.

COX: Because we know we have hundreds of incarcerated individuals in the state of Utah. And we've tried to turn them over to the federal government, and they're not taking them, or the...

INSKEEP: Really?

COX: Yeah. There's not enough detention facilities, not enough transportation. We've tried to open an ICE facility in Utah. We've offered a facility to the Biden administration. They haven't taken us up on that. It's been incredibly frustrating. I would like them, when we - you can't do one without the other. You do have to fix the legal immigration side at the same time. And one way to do that is to ask governors how many permits they need, how many people they need in their state and in what areas of the economy. That's an easy way to take the air out of this one. Some states may say, we don't want anybody. Other states may say, we need a lot of people.

INSKEEP: And you're talking now about work visas, bringing people in.

COX: Exactly, yes. Yeah.

LUJAN GRISHAM: The whole system is...

(CROSSTALK)

INSKEEP: Or are you talking about legalizing people who are currently here? Some...

COX: So...

LUJAN GRISHAM: Yes.

COX: Well, look, I think...

LUJAN GRISHAM: For me, that would be...

INSKEEP: For you, yes. But for you?

LUJAN GRISHAM: For me, that would be a yes.

COX: I think that's part of the conversation, but you can't do that if people are still crossing the border. Like, we have to secure the border.

LUJAN GRISHAM: I also understand that when the feds and Congress have done nothing to address these issues, it puts states in really unfair and, quite frankly, precarious positions. And even on what I find to be, personally, a horrific design that is at least being discussed for mass deportations, I don't think most of America really knows about mixed-status families and what that would really look like. And I heard the president-elect talk about, you'll have to choose. If some people are citizens, they could stay. But otherwise, we don't - you know, I don't know that I care.

INSKEEP: Or deport them all together.

LUJAN GRISHAM: They could just go.

INSKEEP: Yeah.

LUJAN GRISHAM: Well, I care about that community fabric across the country, and I care about that in my own state.

INSKEEP: Wyoming would like a word.

GORDON: We have participated in enforcement activities, and we've sent our state troopers down. We've sent deputies down. We've sent jailers down and others to sort of relieve that effort.

INSKEEP: You will actively help with...

GORDON: We have actively helped, and we're...

COX: And we've done that, too.

GORDON: And we're glad to do that. You have to relay an attitude that there is no forgiveness on this. Now, that can be taken as very harsh. But if you're saying, come to the border. We're not going to let you in. But if you do, we're going to take care of you. And probably, you're going to end up going to some court maybe six years from now. Maybe you'll be found. Maybe you won't. There's a pretty good chance you'll stay. That isn't a, let's respect our border, the way it should be conveyed from us as a nation.

LUJAN GRISHAM: And I agree with Mark about that. I mean, we don't want to create kind of a permissive environment. But because it's so broken, you can't get a visa. You can't meet our constitutional requirements, which say, you can seek asylum and refugee status here. You can't really do it without these illegal crossings.

INSKEEP: Well, that raises a question for me.

LUJAN GRISHAM: And that's a problem.

INSKEEP: Are any of you worried about a situation where lots of people are forced out, and Congress does not expand work visas in a way that allows workers to come in? And your construction...

LUJAN GRISHAM: Yes.

INSKEEP: ...Industry or your ag workers end up - you end up short of manpower, people power. Is that a real concern?

LUJAN GRISHAM: Yes. I worry. You're not worried? Worry.

COX: Yeah, no, I...

LUJAN GRISHAM: You should be worried about this.

COX: (Laughter).

LUJAN GRISHAM: I didn't - I had all brown hair before this.

(LAUGHTER)

LUJAN GRISHAM: And I think you had hair.

(LAUGHTER)

COX: I've never had hair. It just - I came out just like this.

(LAUGHTER)

GORDON: I - yeah, there's a concern. Even the president - you know, incoming president - has said, we need legal immigration. We need workforce.

INSKEEP: Governors, thanks so much for your time. I've really enjoyed this discussion.

COX: Thank you, Steve.

LUJAN GRISHAM: Thank you.

GORDON: Thanks.

INSKEEP: Mark Gordon is the Republican governor of Wyoming. Spencer Cox is the Republican governor of Utah. And Michelle Lujan Grisham is the Democratic governor of New Mexico. We found all three at a meeting of the Western Governors Association in Las Vegas.

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