DAVE DAVIES, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies. Maggie Smith, the renowned British actress best known to American audiences for her roles in the "Harry Potter" films and the masterpiece series "Downton Abbey," died last Friday in London. She was 89. In a career that spanned nearly seven decades, she won two Academy Awards, for "The Prime Of Miss Jean Brodie" and "California Suite." Among her many other films are "A Room With A View," "Gosford Park," "The Secret Garden" and "The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel." She was recognized for her stage and television performances with a host of Tony and Emmy nominations and awards.

We very nearly didn't have Maggie Smith in our archive. She was available in 2016 to promote a film, but we were told she wouldn't sit for a long interview about her career. She couldn't imagine why anyone would want to talk to her for an hour. She finally agreed with two days' notice, and I recorded the interview we'll hear now.

We'll begin with a scene from "Downton Abbey." She played an elderly countess in an aristocratic British family and won three Emmys with her sharp-tongued wit. Here, she's speaking with Lady Grantham, played by Elizabeth McGovern. There's brief mention in the scene of an incident at the estate in which a Turkish diplomat died in a bedroom. The two women are talking about finding a suitable husband for Mary, Lady Grantham's eldest daughter. Maggie Smith's character speaks first.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "DOWNTON ABBEY")

MAGGIE SMITH: (As Violet Crawley) How about some house parties?

ELIZABETH MCGOVERN: (As Cora Crawley) She's been asked to one next month by Lady Ann McNair.

SMITH: (As Violet Crawley) That's a terrible idea. She doesn't know anyone under 100.

MCGOVERN: (As Cora Crawley) I might send her over to visit my aunt. She could get to know New York.

SMITH: (As Violet Crawley) Oh, I don't think things are quite that desperate. Poor Mary. She's been terribly down in the mouth lately.

MCGOVERN: (As Cora Crawley) She was very upset by the death of poor Mr. Pamuk.

SMITH: (As Violet Crawley) Why? She didn't know him. One can't go to pieces at the death of every foreigner. We'd all be in a state of collapse whenever we opened a newspaper.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

DAVIES: And that is our guest, Maggie Smith, with Elizabeth McGovern, from a moment of "Downton Abbey." Well, Maggie Smith, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's great to have you.

SMITH: Thank you.

DAVIES: I mean, you know, this is a wonderful, you know, ensemble cast, but everyone remembers you and those terrific lines you have. Did you realize what a great comedic role this was when you first got it?

SMITH: Yes. Yes, I did. I thought it was great fun, because she was - well, obviously, the oldest in the group. And it was wonderful 'cause she would just sort of - she was in the position when she could say what she wanted to say, because she was the oldest and they all deferred to her. And that was - it was fun. I'm so glad you said that about the ensemble, 'cause we got three awards for ensemble work, which is really good - three SAG Awards, which is terrific for the whole company.

DAVIES: We interviewed Julian Fellowes a while back, and he said that he based your character on an aunt of his, I believe.

SMITH: Oh.

DAVIES: Yeah. Yeah. And he said what was terrific about Maggie Smith was that she was able to combine the contradictions in the role - someone who could, at time, be so cutting and then be so kind - and sort of integrated them. And he said that only an actress of your talent and stature could pull it off. Did...

SMITH: Oh, that's very nice.

DAVIES: Any particular, I don't know, inspiration for you finding this character?

SMITH: Well, it was mainly the way it was written by Julian, which is - which was terrific, you know, and the wonderful lines to say. And it was written so elegantly. She was always very in sympathy with the girls, I think, the very young. She was very helpful to all of them, and I think she knew that they felt restricted.

DAVIES: Right. She understood the constraints of those roles...

SMITH: Yes, I...

DAVIES: ...Better than anyone. Right.

SMITH: Yes.

DAVIES: Right.

SMITH: Yes, completely, because she'd been through it even stricter, but I think she was very aware of it.

DAVIES: You know, Julian Fellowes writes about this life, partly with some personal knowledge. I mean, he actually holds a title, which I don't remember, but...

SMITH: Oh, he's frightfully grand. He's a lord.

DAVIES: Right, and so he had a connection.

SMITH: We do a lot of curtseying.

DAVIES: He had a personal connection to that world. What was your sense of the English aristocracy?

SMITH: Oh, goodness. It's so way beyond me. I'm far, far, far from that. But, of course, that's one of the joys of acting, is that you can move up in the world, you know, in the characters that you're playing, even if you don't. So it was - it's always very nice to be somebody rather grand. Now I seem to be stuck with it, which is a bit of a strain. I think I'm just...

DAVIES: Stuck with the role, you mean?

SMITH: Well, with old mad women, if you know what I mean.

(LAUGHTER)

SMITH: They seem to be, well, the one thing I can do now. You know, it's funny to be pigeonholed so late in life, but there we are.

DAVIES: You can go on YouTube and find montages of your lines in "Downton," one after the other after the other after the other. Do you have a favorite one yourself?

SMITH: I don't remember any of them, to speak truth.

DAVIES: (Laughter) The one that people...

SMITH: Honestly, there are so many. I don't remember.

DAVIES: The line people most mention to me is when Matthew Crawley is talking about how he would manage his time, and he said, there's always the weekend.

SMITH: Oh.

DAVIES: And you say...

SMITH: Yes.

DAVIES: (Laughter)

SMITH: What is a weekend?

DAVIES: (Laughter)

SMITH: Yes, but truthfully, I mean, it's funny, but I - it's weird that it sticks in people's memories so much, isn't it?

DAVIES: Mm-hmm.

SMITH: I mean, what is so funny about saying, what is a weekend?

DAVIES: Well, it's the fact that this woman has grown to her age and hasn't distinguished the weekend days from any other, and (laughter)...

SMITH: No, they've all been lazy, idle times. But even so, it seems odd, doesn't it?

DAVIES: It's the way she says it, I think.

SMITH: Yeah, maybe it's the way you say it.

DAVIES: You didn't grow up in a theatrical family. Your dad was a pathologist, I believe, right? Tell us a bit about...

SMITH: Yeah, he worked in a pathology lab.

DAVIES: Yeah. Tell us a bit about how you grew up, what you were like as a kid.

SMITH: Well, I - no, there was - nobody in the family had ever done anything like that before. My brothers - I had two brothers. They were twins, and they both became architects. And they were about six years older, but they could do these fantastic drawings. And so that was a mystery, I think, to my parents, too, 'cause they had no idea that that was around in the family anywhere. Maybe it never was. But - so they broke the way for me, if you know what I mean.

I went to a school where they were - well, no, they did plays and things. I was never in those, really. But I had a very good English teacher who said to me that she thought I ought to do it. She - I don't know. She saw something, thank goodness. Because I think if it hadn't been encouraged by somebody that serious, I'm not sure what would have happened to me.

DAVIES: And you went to an acting school in Oxford - right? - and got in...

SMITH: Well, they started one, yes. It didn't last very long. If you applied to get in, you got in, if you know what I mean. I was there for about a term, I think. Then I went to the - there was a playhouse that did repertory theater in Oxford. And I worked there for quite a long time, actually, on stage management, understudying and being a dogsbody, really.

DAVIES: And you got into reviews, where you did - what? - singing and a lot of...

SMITH: Yes. I did that a lot...

DAVIES: ...Comedy, right? Yeah.

SMITH: ...Because there was - because it was - the drama school was in Oxford. And it's funny to think of it, but in those days, when I started out, the university was nearly all male, and they certainly weren't mixed. There were male colleges, and there were a very few female colleges. So they were always looking for women to be in productions. We did quite a lot of - well, they were amateur revues. And we did them up in Edinburgh, right at the beginning of the Edinburgh Fringe, you know, the big festival that goes on in Edinburgh every year.

DAVIES: Maggie Smith recorded in 2016. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

DAVIES: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to our interview with Maggie Smith, the British actor whose films include "The Prime Of Miss Jean Brodie" and "Sister Act." She died a week ago at the age of 89.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

DAVIES: Let's talk a bit about "The Prime Of Miss Jean Brodie" - 1969, you played a teacher in a girls school in Edinburgh, Scotland, who's a bit more modern than - in her views and lifestyle - than the school itself, which is quite conservative, but very popular among her students. This is a scene where the head mistress, Miss Mackay, who is played by Celia Johnson, has summoned you, as Miss Brodie, to her office because she's concerned about Miss Brodie's influence on her students. Let's listen.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE PRIME OF MISS JEAN BRODIE")

CELIA JOHNSON: (As Miss Mackay) Please sit down.

SMITH: (As Miss Brodie) Oh. Thank you.

JOHNSON: (As Miss Mackay) What a colorful frock.

SMITH: (As Miss Brodie) Color enlivens the spirit, does it not?

JOHNSON: (As Miss Mackay) Perhaps you are right, though I sometimes wonder if the spirits of the girls need enlivening.

SMITH: (As Miss Brodie) Oh, indeed, they do. My credo is lift, enliven, stimulate.

JOHNSON: (As Miss Mackay) No doubt, but the Marcia Blaine School is essentially a conservative school. We do not encourage the progressive attitude. Now, Miss Brodie, I have noticed a spirit of precocity among your girls, your special girls.

SMITH: (As Miss Brodie) Well, thank you.

JOHNSON: (As Miss Mackay) Oh.

SMITH: (As Miss Brodie) I am in my prime, and my girls are benefiting from it. I'm proud to think that perhaps my girls are more aware.

JOHNSON: (As Miss Mackay) Precisely.

SMITH: (As Miss Brodie) To me, education is a leading out. The word education comes from the root ex, meaning out, and duco, I lead. To me, education is simply a leading out of what is already there.

DAVIES: And that is our guest, Maggie Smith, in her performance that won her the best actress Oscar in "The Prime Of Miss Jean Brodie," in 1969. This is about a charismatic teacher. You know, I actually taught in a girls school in my 20s, and I knew teachers like this who just...

SMITH: Did you (laughter)?

DAVIES: ...You know, were magnetic personalities but could be controversial. Did you draw on anybody for this performance? This is just a terrific role, isn't it?

SMITH: No, I don't think I did. I don't think - I didn't have a teacher like that. But again, it's so fantastically written.

DAVIES: You know, I believe you were not at the Oscar ceremony where it was presented. Did you have...

SMITH: No. I was opening in a play at the National Theatre. It was the first night, and Sir Laurence wouldn't let me go.

DAVIES: Laurence Olivier. Yeah.

SMITH: Yeah.

DAVIES: Yeah.

SMITH: And well, quite rightly - I mean, you can't just abandon a whole production. We were doing Congreve, "The Beaux' Stratagem."

DAVIES: Were you shocked that you got the nomination and the Oscar? I mean, what...

SMITH: I was - you know, back then, it hadn't entered my mind, things like Oscars. And they weren't anywhere near such huge things as they are now. I mean, now they've become, I mean, just extraordinary, haven't they - all this, sort of all over the place? But it was thrilling. But, of course, I missed out on it all.

DAVIES: Well, it happened again a few years later for "California Suite," which was the 1978 film written by Neil Simon, where you won the best supporting actress. This is a film about several different stories, all of them couples, I believe, at a California hotel, right?

SMITH: Yeah.

DAVIES: Your character is an actress who is in California, ironically...

SMITH: That's right.

DAVIES: ...For the Academy Awards.

SMITH: How funny. I haven't thought of it...

DAVIES: Yeah.

SMITH: ...For a long time.

DAVIES: Yeah. And your husband is Michael Caine. It's a marriage of convenience, I gather. He's actually gay.

SMITH: Yes.

DAVIES: He's gay. And I want to play this little scene where you've just come back from the award ceremony, where your character, the actress, did not win and did not take it so well. And she's having an argument with Michael Caine in their suite. Let's listen.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "CALIFORNIA SUITE")

SMITH: (As Diana Barrie) What was the best picture?

MICHAEL CAINE: (As Sidney Cochran) The best picture? You were there when they announced it. It came after the best actress.

SMITH: (As Diana Barrie) I was in a deep depression at the time. What was the best bloody picture?

CAINE: (As Sidney Cochran) Do you mean what was the best picture of the year, or what did those idiots pick as the best picture of the year?

SMITH: (As Diana Barrie) What won the award, you a******?

CAINE: (As Sidney Cochran) I am not an a******. Don't you call me that.

SMITH: (As Diana Barrie) Sidney, I have just thrown up on some of the best people in Hollywood. Now is no time to be sensitive. What was the best picture?

CAINE: (As Sidney Cochran) I'm not telling you.

SMITH: (As Diana Barrie) I'm not asking you. I'm threatening you, you crud.

CAINE: (As Sidney Cochran) Now, I'm definitely not going to tell you.

SMITH: (As Diana Barrie) I'm sorry, I take it back, Sidney. You're not a crud. Oh.

CAINE: (As Sidney Cochran) Am I still an a******?

SMITH: (As Diana Barrie) Definitely.

CAINE: (As Sidney Cochran) Then I'm never going to tell you. You behaved abominably tonight.

SMITH: (As Diana Barrie) Did not.

CAINE: (As Sidney Cochran) Abominably.

SMITH: (As Diana Barrie) Did not.

CAINE: (As Sidney Cochran) Abominably.

SMITH: (As Diana Barrie) A****** crud.

CAINE: (As Sidney Cochran) I am going to bed. We have a 10 a.m. plane to catch in the morning.

SMITH: (As Diana Barrie) Ten a.m. is the morning. That is redundant, you AH.

CAINE: (As Sidney Cochran) Well, do you think I don't know what you're saying? I can spell, you know.

SMITH: (As Diana Barrie) Not without moving your lips, you can't. I would like another drink, please.

CAINE: (As Sidney Cochran) You drank everything in this state. Try Nevada.

DAVIES: That is fun. That's our guest...

SMITH: I haven't heard that for years.

DAVIES: Do you like it listening back?

SMITH: Yes (laughter), it's fun suddenly hearing Michael.

DAVIES: Yeah. That is Michael Caine with our guest, Maggie Smith...

SMITH: Yes.

DAVIES: ...In the film, "California Suite." Tell us a little bit about what Michael Caine did that was so special in that role for you.

SMITH: He was very supportive because it was a tricky time. Herbie (ph) Ross wasn't the easiest of people.

DAVIES: He was the director. Yeah.

SMITH: The director, and Michael always stood up for me. That means everything on a movie, you know, when you're working with somebody particularly, when they support you and help you through the difficult times. And there were some difficult times.

DAVIES: Michael Coveney, who's written a biography of you - he wrote, you behave at all times as if you have no power or status whatsoever. And, you know, when I think about the remarkable talent that you seem to display in every performance - you know, there are stories that on the set you can be intimidating, maybe even difficult at times, which seems at odds with someone who - well, one might think as odds - with someone who really doesn't think of herself as having power and status. And I'm wondering if you think that's true, that you are...

SMITH: Yeah.

DAVIES: Yeah.

SMITH: Yes, I think it is true. But I think it's because - I've thought about this a lot. I think it's because - I know it sounds silly, but I am - and I think a lot of actors will agree with this - I am very insecure. And I don't know - I feel somehow - on a set, I feel a bit trapped, because you're in a corner and you absolutely have to do it. There is no way out. In the theater, you know, you get another chance. You can do it the next night, the next performance. You can probably get it right then. But you don't have any real say in a film. And quite honestly, I'd probably drive everybody mad and go on and on and on and want to do another take, and - because I never feel that it's right. So I always feel huge pressure. It's an odd feeling, but when you're there and you're having to do it, the choice you make has to be absolutely right. And of course, it can't be, so you don't really have a say in it. I find it very hard because I don't know that I trust myself to know if it's good or if that's the take that should be or whether we just do it with one take or there isn't time to do any more, you know?

DAVIES: And that...

SMITH: I find that...

DAVIES: Yeah.

SMITH: ...Real pressure.

DAVIES: And that can lead to some tension at times. Yeah.

SMITH: Yes. I think there's always great tension, because there never seems to be enough - there is always pressure. There's always pressure because there isn't enough time. There's never enough time for a movie, it seems to me - never.

DAVIES: You know, what's interesting about it is that I think so many people see your performances, and you make it look easy. I mean, this is natural. There's no other way that line could have been read.

SMITH: But that's from being under pressure, I think.

DAVIES: And you're saying that you have to work really hard and prepare, and you still feel insecure on the day you shoot.

SMITH: Yes, because that's the pressure. You want so much to get it right.

DAVIES: When I told people I was going to interview Maggie Smith, I just can't tell you the number of people who said, oh, my heavens, you're so lucky. I just love her. And I think, you know, you've particularly had an expanded audience with "Downton Abbey" and the "Harry Potter" films. But, you know, you've had such a terrific career, and you've achieved so much, and so many people just love you. And I'm wondering what that kind of mass adoration feels like to you. Is it gratifying? Is it scary? Is it - can you even comprehend it?

SMITH: Well, it's only happened to me since "Downton Abbey," so I blame the whole thing on television.

(LAUGHTER)

SMITH: It's odd. And I've said this before, but I find it very difficult to do anything on my own now, because people recognize me. This has never happened to me before, because I haven't really done television before. But I suppose, if you're in people's rooms all the time - I don't know. I was thinking that the other night, with people like DiCaprio and, you know, those big stars and the Cate Blanchetts. And you just think, how do they exist? It's so difficult. And I think now it's very intrusive, because of these cell phones, you know, with cameras.

DAVIES: Right.

SMITH: Wherever you go, people want to take a picture of you or take a picture of them with you. And it's - I don't know.

DAVIES: So how do you...

SMITH: So it's very hard. It's hard to do anything on your own.

DAVIES: Do you want to take one question about "Harry Potter," or would you rather be released (laughter)?

SMITH: I would rather be released.

DAVIES: Then...

SMITH: I think you've been adorable.

DAVIES: (Laughter) OK, well - no, no...

(LAUGHTER)

DAVIES: ...I don't know about that. I...

SMITH: What do you want to know about "Harry Potter?"

DAVIES: Just - what was it like to play that role, to act in those films?

SMITH: Well, I'll tell you - I just adore Daniel, Daniel Radcliffe, who I had worked with before "Harry Potter" and spent a long time telling all the producers they had to see him, because I thought he was so terrific. And it's been sad thinking about it, because of Alan Rickman...

DAVIES: Oh, who died...

SMITH: ...Who was...

DAVIES: ...Recently. Yeah.

SMITH: Yes. He was such a terrific actor, and that was such a terrific character that he played. And it was a joy to be with him. We used to laugh together, because we ran out of reaction shots. They were always - when everything had been done and the children were finished, they would turn the camera around, and we'd have to do various reaction shots of amazement or sadness and things. And we used to say we'd got to about number 200 and something, and we'd run out of knowing what to do when the camera came round on us. But he was a joy.

DAVIES: Maggie Smith, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much.

SMITH: Thank you.

DAVIES: Maggie Smith, recorded in 2016. She died last week at the age of 89. After a break, we remember singer, songwriter and actor Kris Kristofferson, who died Saturday at the age of 88. I'm Dave Davies, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF RANDY SCRUGGS' "SMILE AT ME AGAIN (INSTRUMENTAL)") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.

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